One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale

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gymbug1

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07/07/09 04:50 PM

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I was thinking about the silly new gymnastics show on TV and the way they portray the poor sportsmanship among the girls and parents.. And I started thinking about the college meets and how for the most part, gymnasts, parents and fans pull for the individual gymnasts to each do well-just not as well as our own teams! No one wants a gymnast to fall and possibly get hurt. But now, with 6-6, if a team has to count a fall early in the competition, and their only hope now is if other teams have to count a fall, isn't it going to follow that we will now be hoping someone falls instead of really enjoying all of the routines and the athleticism of these wonderful gymnasts? Is this a done deal or is there another vote to come?

If this point has already come up, will someone direct me to which thread it's in? I started a new job and haven't kept up.
Thanks.

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Sneakerface

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07/08/09 07:26 AM

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Just because someone else may have one more rationalization for bad behavior is not a valid argument.

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Diehard Ute

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07/08/09 07:50 AM

Sports is about winning....why so many in gymnastics want to dismiss that and make it into a warm fuzzy love fest I don't know.

The lack of passion about being the best is what makes gymnastics far less of a draw to the 'average' person.

If you really want to ensure the future of gymnastics embracing the competitive aspect of it is a good way to do that.

Gymnastics doesn't have to turn nasty, but it also doesn't have to keep being a sport where you can't want your team to win, even if that means the other team doesn't.

I can't imagine any football fan saying "You know, that running back is just so good, I hope he manages to get a couple of touchdowns so we can enjoy his ability".

Diehard Ute

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Mark46

Agree 100%

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07/08/09 08:07 AM

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And I think this warm, fuzzy attitude comes from the fact that winning and losing means virtually nothing the regular season. If a team has to win vs just putting up a score for RQS then the whole dynamic changes for everyone.

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dumbgymdad

It is already the case

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07/08/09 09:10 AM

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As I think I wrote in an earlier thread, "counting falls" (even being tempted to hope for the other team to fall) is a current reality. Once a team has one fall on an apparatus, they are in an "all up, all count" situation. It may be less frequent than in the future, but it isn't absent in the present.

Further, we mistakenly call the "six up, count five" format as giving a "mulligan." I have seen two meets in recent years where the outcome was determined by counting "all six" scores as a tie-breaker. The winner of these meets were determined by the quality of gymnastics done by gymnasts after they fell.

Lastly, I'm not as worried about teams doing routines "not to lose." We have seen a steady increase in difficulty and quality. The pace of increase may decline, but I'm okay with that. It may help limit injuries, as well as gymnasts who try to perform things they aren't ready to do. However, having seen Utah, Georgia, etc. move forward in difficulty while still scoring so well, I don't think we are going to see boring gymnastics.

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honey bear page

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07/08/09 12:33 PM

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Diehard Ute wrote:
Sports is about winning....why so many in gymnastics want to dismiss that and make it into a warm fuzzy love fest I don't know.

The lack of passion about being the best is what makes gymnastics far less of a draw to the 'average' person.

If you really want to ensure the future of gymnastics embracing the competitive aspect of it is a good way to do that.

Gymnastics doesn't have to turn nasty, but it also doesn't have to keep being a sport where you can't want your team to win, even if that means the other team doesn't.

I can't imagine any football fan saying "You know, that running back is just so good, I hope he manages to get a couple of touchdowns so we can enjoy his ability".

100% agree with all your comments above Diehard!

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Duncan

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07/08/09 01:37 PM

As an average fan the 6 up 6 count is disappointing. I don't follow the logic that this will help increase attendance. To say it will increase competition is a stretch. There have been several years where the team I support and other teams as well are lucky to have 5 athletes compete on an event....much less six. Bad idea!

Fans love knowing their team still has a chance when one athlete falls....take away that and you're taking away the very reason many are attending the meet.

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dumbgymdad

Videos from those who have succeeded in marketing

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07/08/09 02:18 PM

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Greg Marsden	Marketing Gymnastics		Lead	[-]
Registered Member Posts: 286 05/19/09 06:58 AM Head Coach, University of Utah	Tags : None Gymnastics Marketing 101 With Greg Marsden Marketing Your Team And Building Support For Gymnastics With Suzanne Yoculan Sarah Patterson On Selling Out The Coliseum Videos created by Ann Phillips of Gymnastike

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Diehard Ute

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07/08/09 02:33 PM

I think it should be noted that some coaches (Marsden included) pushed for 5/5 for that reason.

I don't think the number of routines counting is the idea, it's the fact that you shouldn't get to toss one.

Every meet you throw out some routines, then you decide the post season lineup by throwing out half the meets.

That's not what sports is about....should we let the guy ranked #144 on the PGA tour get a few mulligans each round so he has a better chance of beating Tiger?

Diehard Ute

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Pogo

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07/08/09 03:25 PM

Diehard Ute wrote:
That's not what sports is about....should we let the guy ranked #144 on the PGA tour get a few mulligans each round so he has a better chance of beating Tiger?

The answer is possibly, depending upon the circumstances. In both the Ryder Cup and the Presidents Cup, some of the matches played are "four ball" which means that two player-partners compete against another pair of player-partners, everyone plays their own ball, and only the best (lowest) score counts. This means that on every hole two out of four scores are dropped.

The point is that the concept of dropping a bad score for the benefit of the team is not unique to college gymnastics.

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JERSEYPAIGE

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07/12/09 05:54 PM

i would love it if all scores counted. I agree totally with Diehard. The competition, the win, that is what gives us all the juice to stay motivated. If more teams felt like they had a chance to win, then coaches would be more motivated, there would be more parity, more upsets and that would help the longevity of our sport. Although, I am proud that Georgia has won the last five titles, I do not think it is good for the sport one bit and would love for us to have rules which would make it more about coaching strategies and less about recruiting and winning traditions.....

I remember telling Greg Marsden in my first year as head coach, " we are coming after you." Why aren't there more coaches today who feel like they can come after Georgia, Utah, UCLA and Bama? There are only a few out there who even think they can come close........if all scores counted, Georgia would have lost to Arkansas this year. Imagine the "atta boys" that Mark and Renee would have enjoyed that week. There is absolutely no reason to continue to compete 6 with only 5 scores counting.......I just wish it were 5 up and 5 count.......

I also agree that the "all scores count" rule will NOT affect difficulty. We all have too much pride for that to happen.

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Duncan

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07/13/09 07:37 AM

Jerseypaige as a coach or former coach I would think you would know better. I think it's incredibly naive to believe that 5 up 5 count will not affect difficulty. Again speaking solely as an average fan. The thrill in most sports ...at the end of the day....for the fan ..is the win. I think 5 up 5 count will affect difficulty....routines will get watered down to make sure athletes hit. Pride is one thing....I'm sure it's a tremendous part of why the athlete competes. For the fan winning is where the pride comes in. Talk to some football fans ...particularly in the SEC ....their proud ....because they win.

Talk to any of the gymnastics coaches and they will tell you that losing builds character.....but it's the wins that keep the fans coming back year after year.

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Diehard Ute

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07/13/09 08:36 AM

If it were all about "watering down" to win, every team would be throwing Y. Full vaults...or using basic floor passes.

You can go through the entire season and not have to throw anywhere near what Utah, UGA, Bama, Florida etc are throwing difficulty wise under the current rules, but they do....and you want to know why? The athletes want to show what they can do, and they want to win by doing their best skills.

I think this assumption that teams have to drop a score to be assured they can put up wins is precisely what is wrong with the thinking of many around the sport. What kind of sport is it when you're worried about setting up the rules so teams can be assured of "winning"?

I agree with everything Jerseypaige wrote....and I don't say that lightly, as I'm sure she knows :)

Diehard Ute

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Jersey Devil 11

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07/13/09 10:56 AM

I'm just a fan I go to meets just to see my dd, and superstars when they come to town. I can look at the rankings and tell who's going to win a meet, pretty much. But, now with the new rules (X-Factor) all scores count, and no more mulligans, I will be many other meets.

In order to keep the big sills in the routines add .2 to the E skills and deduct .7 if its missed. And if its about winning, nothing would be watered down. With all scores counting teams will be a little more even now.

I have the right to change my mind, when my team is in the top 4.

Go Sun Devils

Jersey

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dumbgymdad

Coming after Georgia

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07/13/09 11:09 AM

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You wrote, "Why aren't there more coaches today who feel like they can come after Georgia?"

I was thrilled to see our Iowa State team schedule a meet at Georgia last year (or was it the year before?). I even tried to reschedule a business trip so that I could be there. You can't win meets like that if you don't schedule them. And I want to be there when we beat you!

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dumbgymdad

Has the difficulty gone down?

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07/13/09 11:13 AM

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The history of the sport is one of increasing rigidity on counting scores. Once upon a time, only three scores were counted. Once upon a time, two vaults were counted. Yet, would anyone say that the current level of difficulty has been inhibited by the increasing rigidity in counting scores? Based on this evidence, I suspect that the difficulty will continue to move forward, even with the new rules.

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One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/07/09 04:50 PM	gymbug1
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/08/09 07:26 AM	Sneakerface
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/08/09 07:50 AM	Diehard Ute
Agree 100%	07/08/09 08:07 AM	Mark46
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/08/09 12:33 PM	honey bear page
It is already the case	07/08/09 09:10 AM	dumbgymdad
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/08/09 01:37 PM	Duncan
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/08/09 02:33 PM	Diehard Ute
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/08/09 03:25 PM	Pogo
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/12/09 05:54 PM	JERSEYPAIGE
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/13/09 07:37 AM	Duncan
Has the difficulty gone down?	07/13/09 11:13 AM	dumbgymdad
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/13/09 08:36 AM	Diehard Ute
Re: One more thought on how6-6 will affect team and fan morale	07/13/09 10:56 AM	Jersey Devil 11
Coming after Georgia	07/13/09 11:09 AM	dumbgymdad
Videos from those who have succeeded in marketing	07/08/09 02:18 PM	dumbgymdad

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